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Does Anyone Deserve Health Care? What Would You Do?

What if the current health care legislation were suspended? With a clean slate, what would you like to see in a new small bill? Or do you think each person is on their own, whether child or adult?

Health Care Bill – What should it contain?

OK, everybody can find fault with what has come to be called ObamaCare. Let’s frame the discussion in another way and begin with a clean slate whether it be Romney’s slate or Obama’s slate.

Questions:

  1. Is there anything that should be in a health care bill, or should the federal government not be involved in any way in health care and why?
  2. What is one specific item you would like to see covered in a health care bill?

Truly, be constructive, succinct, civil, and specific.

I’ll begin with one item just to seed a conversation.

I believe that all children should have a minimum level of health care from birth to 18 years old. No matter who their parents are. No matter what their conditions, they should NOT have to be concerned about health care for emergencies, for disease, or anything in America. I believe that if we were to all pay a few dollars toward the health of our young, the cost per person paying would be very small to assure good health. I have no data but it would seem it could avoid hospital emergency costs in many ways.

I am saying a “minimum” level of care. Those able could certainly increase that level. The care could be provided through the existing insurance company base. I am not suggested we eliminate any part of that industry, although they should themselves provide some monitoring. While I feel the age should be to 18, I can see an argument for only birth to seven or 10 or so as a beginning program.

What else would you like to see for required coverage? How it would be paid for, or what would be your reasons if you feel there should be no required coverage? Try to write a response without labels and without a broad brush of right or left. Romney has had positions on health care, too.

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McGibblets June 9, 2012 at 03:15 pm
Rusty, I'm not sure what part of my very first post is not clear. There should be no 'health care bill'. There is no reason to treat health care as if it is something different from all other goods and services. The market provides individuals with the opportunity to do something BETTER if they feel others are not doing it the best way possible. The market gives options to what consumers want and demand, it is the introduction of govt into this situation that restricts options and lessens the competition that drives costs down while driving performance up.
McGibblets June 9, 2012 at 03:22 pm
Brian, you mention TV as in the service you subscribe to. I am referring to the product you use to display said service. If you have complaints about what youre paying for 'TV' you certainly have other providers to choose from as well as the choice NOT to have a TV service.
Also, the extent of 'GOV. reg' as you put it on television hardware pales in comparison to how entrenched and intertwined govt is with health care, further making my point.
Richard Hertz June 10, 2012 at 05:44 am
Lefty,
I would love to engage you in a wager over whether or not the so called Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act will in fact reduce costs. There is absolutely no chance of that happening. NONE. If you think the government can take over a huge portion of the US economy and reduce costs it might not even be worth replying to you. The fact that you could believe such rubbish almost makes making a wager with you unfair...the equivalent of taking candy from a baby. Of course, you'd never accept such a wager...libs, while quite keen on spending other people's money, are very hesitant to put their own money on the line. In the end it won't matter anyway...because the so called Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act will be struck down by the Supreme Court any day now. Now, I'm hesitant to turn this into a debate about abortion, but since you brought up "a fundamental responsibility to respect a right to life," perhaps you'd like to offer your feelings on the "right to life" of a fetus.
blythe June 10, 2012 at 04:46 pm
No one chooses to get Sick in any way (especially cancer) Single payer system is the
only fair and nonprofit way. Being the only Country without health care is not something to be proud of. All Living Creatures need Food, Roof and medical care in order to reach their full potential. Stress is a killer, without access to Doctor..creates stress and worry.
Richard Hertz June 10, 2012 at 05:30 pm
Your post can be summed up with the following definition of a word that sounds like your name.
blithe: lacking due thought or consideration It appears that your parents were quite prescient. Now, on to your insanely false premise that the US is the is "the only Country without health care." Where is the world would you get the idea that the US does not have health care? There are laws in this country that force...that's right FORCE...a hospital to treat a sick person that has no ability or intention to pay for the care that he will get when he presents himself at the emergency room. I'd like to find out what type of business you're in and see how'd you'd like such a requirement applied to you. Should a hungry person be allowed to show up at any grocery store or restaurant and demand free food? Should home depot be required to provide free tools for those that can't afford them? Should a lawn care company be forced to mow the lawns of people that can't afford to pay them? And one more thing...not only are you completely wrong about the US being "the only Country without health care," it's even worse than that. In spite of the strong arm of government regulating the healthcare industry nearly into submission, the US manages to be a world leader in healthcare. People from your favored countries with so called "free healthcare" routinely come here for treatment. Why would they do that?
TC June 11, 2012 at 12:54 pm
Richard, this was supposed to be a civil discussion. You're post is offensive.
Brian June 11, 2012 at 02:49 pm
Everyone deserves compassion. Health-care is not compassion.
Health-care is the labor of doctors, nurses, and others working in medical offices or hospitals. Health-care is the bandages, drugs, diagnostic machines, furniture, and buildings that are those offices and hospitals. Demanding someone else pay for those things for you is wrong. Insisting you have the right to it is wrong. A million heart wrenching stories can be told to justify a system where deserved compassion is equated with health-care. It isn't and in the end if you take another person's money to pay for something that you need you are a thief. If you demand the government establish a system to take another person's money, in this case forcing everyone to participate and pay, you support tyranny.
Chet Brewer June 12, 2012 at 01:14 am
After reading the responses its pretty clear whats wrong with this country is a loss of the belief that you are your brothers keeper and considering the number of so called "Christians" on this thread saying that they have no responsibility for others its pretty obvious that they aren't part of any church i grew up in. Oh well they seem to want us to be a third world country and seem to be leading us in that direction, lets not pay for schools, roads, or anything that requires collective action. No wonder there are no volunteers for anything any more since they are not responsible for anyone but themselves. Welcome to Mordor
Richard Hertz June 12, 2012 at 03:00 am
Go ahead and bring religion into it Chet. That suits me just fine, as religious charity is 100% voluntary, as opposed to the actual system you are defending.
Do you honestly think that voluntary charity is the same thing as the govt taking my money under the threat of jail (and ultimately death) in order to redistribute it in the worst possible manner, with the worst possible unintended consequences, and the worst possible outcomes? Many years ago when charity was real and not monopolized by the government, those providing the charity could impose certain rules and yet still, strangely enough, the recipients actually seemed grateful. Not so much anymore now that receiving "charity" from the government has been declared a RIGHT by the govt. Maybe more people would be willing to participate in real charity if governments at all levels weren't constantly putting the screws to us by taxing virtually every single product we buy and every single activity we perform...to the point that probably not a single person in the entire country knows exactly how much money in taxes they pay. And one more thing..."third world status" is the natural state of nations. The past 200 plus years have shown that the most effective way to climb out of that pitiful status is a free market system. Yet here you are supporting a system (socialism and its relatives) that has time and again either kept countries at third would status or pushed them back into it.
Richard Hertz June 12, 2012 at 03:03 am
I guess in your world truth is offensive. The fact is, what you read was the toned down, polite version of what I wanted to say about one of the dumbest posts I've ever read, on any forum anywhere.
Chet Brewer June 12, 2012 at 11:30 am
Richard
Stop whining about your taxes, they are lower then your parents were at this point and the state of higher education, transportation, and other common goods show Americans aren't paying their fair share for an advanced society. Glad you like living in a third world culture and its obvious you believe that it is the norm because you and your types are leading us there destroying 200 years of progress.
Missy June 12, 2012 at 11:58 am
Chet, why do you keep saying we live in a third world culture? You've obviously never been to a 3rd world country and it's extremely insulting that you keep saying that, and it makes no sense. It's also obvious that you've never been to a communist or previously communist county either, because if you had, you wouldn't be whining that your taxes are too low. You do realize that you and anyone else who thinks that are more than free (yes, FREE) to write as many checks for as much as you want to the IRS, or the State of MD, or the county, and tell them that you want your extra tax payments to go to whatever program you wish. It's funny that you never hear about people actually doing that, they would rather talk about no one else paying their fair share. That makes no sense either. Lead by example. I have no idea how old you or your parents are, but I can definitely say that my taxes are more than double what my parents were "at this point." But I can also say that most things that remain in the free market are a million times better than when my parents were at this point, and the things that have remained in the govt. sector are 10 times worse at this point. I can compare both health "care" (even though I believe we're all talking about insurance) and education.
Rusty Vaughan June 12, 2012 at 02:38 pm
It is easy to see by this thread why Congress gets nothing done. There are so many labels, accusations, sarcasm but few solutions offered. Ah, yes, there is accountability in specific suggestions.
If we could come together in a blending of ideas on health care (a compromise for each but good for all) it could work for everyone and even perpetuate our Democracy. Obviously Congress was not able to do that thus what we have. Even so, it is my understanding that with the passing of “ObamaCare” over 8 million uninsured children got healthcare or insurance. I still refer you to the original questions. My “opinion” was to seed the answers but most of the comments have been to disagree with my opinion, not offer original answers. One made 29% of the comments and more than that of the words and sarcasm, but little, if anything, constructive.
Rusty Vaughan June 12, 2012 at 02:38 pm
It has been my successful practice for most of my adult life that to solve a problem, we begin with a discussion of everyone’s interests then brainstorm and evolve ideas that will work…. and be legal.
Many here will oppose me. That’s OK, I don’t understand your position either. It took a lot of words before Hertz stated that he is against all forms of public health care or insurance. We can work with that. I have several principles that have evolved throughout my life. They have served me well. A few years ago I saw another list that seemed to fit many of mine. It is one set forth by the Unitarian Universalists. I see little with which to disagree and still be an American… but I am sure many will. They (and I) believe in.. • The inherent worth and dignity of every person; • Justice, equity and compassion in human relations; • Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations; • A free and responsible search for truth and meaning; • The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and in society at large; • The goal of world community with peace, liberty, and justice for all; • Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part.
Richard Hertz June 12, 2012 at 02:50 pm
Please show me the 8 million children that didn't have access to healthcare before obamacare.
"One made 29% of the comments and more than that of the words and sarcasm, but little, if anything, constructive." - Perhaps that's me you're referring to. In my defense, there's quite a bit of misinformation that needed correcting (for example, see the first sentence of this post).
Richard Hertz June 12, 2012 at 02:53 pm
More misinformation: "It took a lot of words before Hertz stated that he is against all forms of public health care or insurance."
Please tell me where I said that. I guarantee you that you have misunderstood and misquoted me, likely because you have your own preconceived ideas of what is right (your way of thinking) and what is wrong (my way of thinking), and couldn't possibly approach the subject with an open mind...despite your best efforts at trying to make us think that with the very premise of your article.
Missy June 12, 2012 at 03:31 pm
Let it run throught the free market system seems to be the theme-answer to your question. But congress & you don't like the answer, so you think it's not an answer. That happens to me, too. I ask a question, don't like the answer, can't understand the answer, and keep asking the question.
Since congress doesn't like the answer,either, nothing gets done. But it's not because of what you see on this thread.
Rusty Vaughan June 12, 2012 at 06:55 pm
Apology to Hertz. I should have attributed that to McGibblets. "Rusty, I'm not sure what part of my very first post is not clear. There should be no 'health care bill'." So, Hertz, is there anything that could be of value in health care legislation even if the government were not administering it?
Richard Hertz June 13, 2012 at 12:51 am
Imagine a world where healthcare is completely unregulated by government. Now imagine passing some sort of healthcare legislation. How long will it be before govt is "administering" healthcare from the sidelines through legislation? Not long. We started down that road in earnest in the 60s, so 50 years after starting down the road to healthcare fascism we reached our destination with Obamacare. Unfortunately we'll still be there, though to a lesser extent, when the Supreme Court sends Obamacare to a well deserved legislative grave later this month. Keep in mind that Obama's not solely to blame. Every president since Johnson, and practically every member of Congress since then, has helped pave this road to hell.
So, if you're talking about federal legislation, my healthcare legislation has actually already been ratified...220 years ago: The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people. And one more thing Rusty. One of your principles appears to be liberty. How do you define liberty?
Brian June 13, 2012 at 02:21 am
No Chet, what is wrong with this country is too many people thinking "there ought to be a law" to support their point of view. Healthcare is not a national issue, it is a local one and forcing a one size fits all solution on everyone doesn't work. It only leads to partisanship and the growth of the political class that promises to implement these small minded solutions. Both sides are guilty of it in our two party system. The bottom line is the law is force and if you are OK with forcing someone to buy one thing, you are OK with forcing them to buy everything, the principle is simple and clear. Christians are charitable because they choose to be, not because of a law, and freedom of choice is a higher principle to uphold, than coerced charity will ever be.
Chet Brewer June 13, 2012 at 02:32 am
nice try Missy, but I am nearly sixty and all you have to do is look at tax rates. When I in high school highest federal tax bracket was 70% today it is 35%. The median income tax brackets were 22% then and 15% now. the relevant rates for 2x the median were 29% then and 15% now.
To answer your other question I have been in several third world countries and fought in one that was taken over by the communists so I have seen and lived in more then a few third world countries. I do lead by example dear, I pay my taxes owed, I don't go to illegal tax shelters, and i volunteer for my community, I even volunteered for the military before the pay rates were livable. Your taxes in dollars may be 2x but your income is 4x your parents unless you have really slipped.
Richard Hertz June 13, 2012 at 02:55 am
Chet: Citing the tax rates says absolutely nothing about who was paying those rates.
First of all, at a 70% federal marginal tax rate, almost nobody paid it. Who would be dumb enough to work those extra hours or days...so that 70% of those wages could be sent to the federal govt (and some more on top of that to the state govt)? That's the reason that whenever marginal tax rates are reduced overall govt revenue increases...resources that people were not using in order to avoid paying outrageous marginal tax rates are freed up and put to productive uses. Second, inflation has pushed many current workers into higher current brackets. It's what's called bracket creep. It's great for the politicians because it's a tax increase that they don't have to vote for. It happens automatically with inflation. Also you might have forgotten about is the drastic increases in social security taxes over the years. And the addition of state sales taxes in many states probably slipped your mind. And you might not have considered the costs of regulations. Because it's so difficult to track all the various ways govts tax us (income taxes, property taxes, payroll taxes, excise taxes, phone taxes, electricity taxes, fees, tolls, licences, registrations, regulations, etc.) the best way to measure things is to look at overall govt spending. And for that there is no denying that the overall trend of the past hundred years is a gigantic increase in govt spending at all levels of govt.
Shanna June 13, 2012 at 03:18 pm
Hertz, I just want to say one thing. The government is already administering healthcare from the sidelines, maybe not directly but indirectly. its called the Center for Medicare and Medicaid or CMS. Medicare is our biggest insurance provider and they are a government insurance. They have created thier "guidelines" and most insurance providers follow Medicare guidelines. So when Medicare changes a pay scale for a procedure, 98% of all other insurance companies will folllow suit. If Medicare decided a certain diagnosis is "not medically necessary" then 98% of the other insurance companies will follow suit. I am not saying that its good or bad, but just saying that it is happening.
Shanna June 13, 2012 at 03:27 pm
Well then, they never should have never started paying for routine check ups to begin with. You give it to me and say "isn't it nice? Now I am going to charge 3X as much to keep it." If it's just for emergencies and for unexpected events then keep it that way. But it's not like that, is it? And it's not my fault its not like that, is it? This was going on long before I was even born. It is what it is and what it is is totally messed up and needs to be fixed. My way.....your way.....congress' way....God's way......some way......it needs to be fixed.
Missy June 13, 2012 at 03:32 pm
Here's my suggestion: Change the tax rules to make medical expenses fully deductible, instead of subject to a limit based on income. My personal opinion is that no one in Washington really cares about the whole health care problem if they don't address the deductibility of it on the tax return. And the limit rate is going from 7.5% to 10%, so basically, anyone who has a lot of medical expenses and can deduct them, will not be able to deduct 2.5% of them next year. Imagine what your tax return would look like if you could deduct 100% of it.
Richard Hertz June 13, 2012 at 03:56 pm
I am well aware of that. My hypothetical situation was in response to Rusty asking "So, Hertz, is there anything that could be of value in health care legislation even if the government were not administering it?"
The reality of the past 200 years proves that if govt starts to pass legislation on an industry...it will soon enough overwhelmingly control that industry.
Rusty Vaughan June 26, 2012 at 02:05 pm
It is difficult to assemble good ideas when all are criticized. Hertz you are a broken record. What are your suggestions for something good since we do live in a crowded society. I tried to allow for health care suggestions without government but you have not proposed how that could happen. On other sites you have condemned trash collection and recycling because it was contracted by the government. Would you omit law enforcement? How would you improve our collective lives? How would you propose care for children who are not adequately provided for?
Richard Hertz June 27, 2012 at 03:14 am
Talk about a broken record...Pot, meet kettle. Your starting point for any discussion is that we need government to do X, Y, and Z. Check your premise Vaughan...because it's wrong. We need government to pick up our trash? And take care of our kids? Improve our collective lives? Really? The world doesn't need Vaughan to assemble "good ideas." The world is capable of organizing things on its own, sans government and sans Vaughan, a hell of a lot better than you & your big government-loving friends. Haven't you noticed that everything the government touches it destroys? They have a monopoly on first class mail delivery...and not only can't they turn a profit, they can't come close to breaking even. They've spent trillions of dollars on a way on poverty...and yet poverty never goes away. The war on drugs? They can't even keep drugs out of the hands of people in jail. They reward awful behaviors like not working and teenage girls having children...while penalizing (taxing) work and marriage. These are the fools you want to "improve our collective lives?"
One of the reasons I sound like a broken record is I'm trying to get you to understand economics. Your complete lack of understanding of basic economics should embarrass you. Yet, not only aren't you embarrassed by it, you embrace it, and go around posting things on the internet, showcasing your startling ignorance for the world to see. If you want to have a reasoned discussion of health care, first learn some basic economics.
Ronald August 16, 2012 at 09:19 am
Just because the parents or illegal it doesn't make their children illegal. I am against the: "we are here illegally but have legal children so you cann't separate us and send us back". Let them take their legal children and leave this country.
Ronald August 16, 2012 at 09:23 am
It is not a tax - it is a tax. Would obama care have passed if he had not lied about it being a tax. Chief Judge Roberts sold us all down the river and what we really need is a legal way to remove him. Even senile, corrupt, criminal judges can stay on the Supreme Court until they decide they should no longer be there. What corruption.
The next president will have a major input on future Supreme Court decisions. More Obama care to come - screw State's Rights.
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