POLL: Should the Board Have Voted on Two Rivers?

Chris W August 29, 2012 at 10:41 am

Jeff, I corrected the issue "former" issue in an earlier below.
Now. If you are familiar with where the Amtrak maintenance facility is, you should know that the water tower that servers PO and the surrounding area (it even says Piney Orchard on it) is adjacent to the rail yard and roughly a few hundred yards from the landfill on fort Meade just across the tracks. The southern edge of this landfill is close to the newer 55+ housing off the main circle. I am not unconcerned about the landfills, I just think its inevitable when it is in a more rural setting. Again, I think development is our friend in this instance.

Jeff Andrade August 29, 2012 at 02:12 pm

Chris: First, both proposed landfills were granted special exceptions two decades ago despite widespread community opposition to both. Under the County ordinance at the time, they had two years to implement the special exception which neither of them did. These special exceptions have been granted extension after extension, and at the same time the County approved residential development closer and closer to them over the last two decades. Second, the State permit process for the Cunningham landfill as a matter of public record had been concluded. Cunningham applied for a landfill permit in December 1993. A hearing was held in Feb 2000 where MDE heard testimony from numerous residents including Cunningham's repeated violations. In Sept 2000, MDE made a final determination to deny that permit. Cunningham subsequently appealed all the way to the state courts from 2001 to 2008, and the denial was ultimately upheld by the Court of Special Appeals in March 2008. What was not known to the public, was that a second permit for the site was submitted from a new shell corporation, which included Mr. Cunningham's daughters, in July 2002. The public was not notified of this new permit ap until two years later in July 2004, where once again there was considerable pubilc opposition to it. From 2004 - 2011, MDE reviewed numerous reports and made a number of decisions without any public disclosure. It was not until August 2011, that the public first saw ANY of the details.

Dave August 30, 2012 at 01:26 am

Chris, as Jeff points out, if I had done research in 2005, I would have thought that Cunningham had no permit, because MDE denied it for environmental violations. It is only through legal chicanery that he has been able to keep his permit alive.
As to the bigger issue Jeff alludes to - you should ask AA County why they approved a special exception for Piney Orchard directly adjacent to the approved special exception to the landfill. You agreed with me on the other thread that land use regulation has its place. I think we can all agree that the land use regulation in AA County is poorly implemented. When nearly everything is developed by special exception, one must wonder what the point of the rules are.

Patrick H. August 30, 2012 at 03:11 am

I'm new to this area. My family and I have relocated from Mass. and it was suggested to us that I take a look at some of the Severn and Odenton PATCH postings in order to get a feel for where we should consider purchasing a home. Since schools are a big concern of ours I thought this site looked like an obvious choice but, in all honesty, I'm not very impressed by the anger and disrespect expressed throughout this site. Having written on sites such as these, as well as for newspapers and magazines, I am suprised that the conduct and language used here are allowed by the PATCH. I think that for now we will mark Four Seasons, Piney Orchard and the new homes being built by some landfill as communities we should stay away from.

Tim Lemke (Editor) August 30, 2012 at 03:34 am

Patrick - I wouldn't judge a community based on what's said in the comments section of a website. It'd be hard to find any acceptable place to live if you did that.
People are a lot nicer to one another in person. Odenton is a very pleasant place to live and the schools are great.

Dave August 30, 2012 at 05:10 am

Patrick,
Don't judge the area by a few abusive and/or obtuse commenters. The area has problems, no doubt, but there are many upsides to living in Piney Orchard. Great walking/biking trails, family pools, friendly neighbors. If we can band together as a community and influence the larger Anne Arundel political process, perhaps we can make a difference with these land use issues as well.

radarradar August 30, 2012 at 02:59 pm

Politically motivated'? 'Criminally investigated'? Really? How about TRANSPARENCY? How about CITIZEN INPUT? No matter where you stand on this issue, it should be vetted by the public. I don't see how you cannot understand that.

radarradar August 30, 2012 at 03:01 pm

Well said.

radarradar August 30, 2012 at 03:27 pm

Patrick-
Dave is right. There are some heated debates on these discussion boards all the time. Most of the abusive ones are just internet trolls (you should know this, having written on such sites). The moderators here are pretty flexible, which, to me anyway, is a MUCH better alternative that censorship. Anyway, posters here for the most part have their 'big boy pants' on, and can handle the leeches, lurkers and trolls. The Odenton, Gambrills, Crofton and Millersville areas are AWESOME places in which to raise a family.

Jeff Andrade August 30, 2012 at 05:22 pm

Have to agree with Tim. If you look at the back and forth comments in the over 1,100 reader posts on the Patch's story about Romney and Ryan in Virginia (http://odenton.patch.com/articles/mitt-romney-in-virginia-hours-after-picking-rep-paul-ryan-for-vp) you probably wouldn't want to live anywhere in Maryland or Virginia!

Daniel Benolt August 31, 2012 at 03:26 pm

The developers have been meeting with the communities and school board for months. There was plenty of public imput opportunities. If you feel like the school board did not represent you, it is because they are appointed, not elected. As to the environmental debate above, remember that the newest state and county environmental regulations would never permit what occurred years back during the original development. New regulations that will be imposed on this and all other developments would mitigate, if not eliminate many of these "past experience" concerns raised. It is unfortunate that the communities did not seek Greater Crofton Council opinions until it was being voted on, but many community associations fail to properly handle complex development issues properly, as they are multiplexed and often perceived to be wrong, regardless of facts. The land owners that built your houses had a right to development and chose to exercise that right. The land owners in this development should be granted the same rights. Traffic has a standard they must achieve, so although having the information would be helpful, there is already a rule to address this. Assuming that the regulations will not be followed is inflamatory and counterproductive to the process. Elect new community leaders that better represent you and this mess can be minimized to legitimate discussions on how best to make this development and the others soon to follow appropriate and well serving our community.

Nathan Purdy August 31, 2012 at 03:37 pm

Daniel makes some good points, but I dont necessarily trust that regulations suppose compliance. Creating specific conditions on the development (and future ones to be fair to all) would mitigate some of the risk the communities have issues with. As for traffic, ask your buddies Benoit and Walker why they are not lobbying harder, smarter, with Reilly Vitale and McConkey to get RTE 3 fixed. The GDP and BRAC stuff I have read say that we are getting the residential housing. Dealing with how best to make it a part of our area's communities would serve the existing communities much better than fighting an inevitability. Watching them like hawks during construction would be a better use of the anti private property rights group that seems to have taken over your community boards. Why always US vs THEM? Try a team effort to develop the best possible communities and next time, attend the multiple meetings they have had on this for almost a year now instead of crying foul after the fact.

Patrick H. August 31, 2012 at 04:15 pm

Thank you Tim and Jeff for your comments. I guess that there really is a lot of negativity everywhere you look today and it doesn't seem to be getting any better. All we can do is hope for the best but we are pretty sure Maryland is where we want to be. Now we just need to find a community that sticks together and are problem solvers instead of problem creators.
Thanks again.

Chris W August 31, 2012 at 04:22 pm

Daniel, you have very eloquently made excellent points. your perspective is refreshing.

Patrick H. August 31, 2012 at 04:30 pm

We've experienced the same phenom in Mass. No one gets involved until it directly affects them. That is the sad part of living in a great Republic like we live in. Usually the ones that run for office have personal agendas and are really working for specific entities. Given the time and money it takes to obtain an office you have to be a Mitt Romni in order to be able to afford a leadership rold. The rest of us are too busy paying bills to take a chance on the possibility of a few years in office and our private lives being totally examined.
We are looking at several communities where we can settle and be a part of the community but we are seeing more residencial settings where the owners/renters have little control over where they live. This is just not us. We will keep looking as I am sure it is out there somewhere. Thank you for your opinion Daniel B. We agree with you. It is not the rules or laws that are at fault. It is the complacency of the communities and their failure/refusal to enforce the rules. And let's not forget how the rules/laws were first put into place - probably by the developers and those with a vested interest. We all need to look-before-we leap and hope that those that came before us had some integrity and fairness. A great jurist once said: "Read the fine print and understand what is not being said or published." Take care everyone, god bless and have a great weekend remembering those that made it possible.

Jeff Andrade August 31, 2012 at 06:02 pm

Actually, Daniel you are dead wrong on your claim of "plenty of public input opportunities" . The developers met with only the School Superintendent's staff, without any public knowledge, for almost a year. They submitted a proposal to the School Board in the first week of July, and then the Superintendent tried to push it through the school board for a vote a week with less than 48 hours public notice. After a public outcry, the School Board told developers to meet with local communities, which they did not complete (meeting only with 3), and they refused to disclose any of the traffic engineering documents that they submitted to the County. Despite the fact that there is a deed restriction on the land limiting development to 55+ housing and the fact that the largest community association formally opposed the proposal, the school board narrowly voted to move forward without any discussion of the environmental issues surrounding the proposed site or the deed restrictions. The Greater Crofton Council had informed the developers that their next meeting was in September. The developers are not following the regular process -- they are looking for waivers and changes to past agreements. They are looking for special treatment.

Patrick H. August 31, 2012 at 07:11 pm

It sounds to me as if Daniel has stated the facts correctly. I have tried to catch up on this development issue and it appears as if the developers are only doing what developers do and that there are a lot of sour grapes by those that want things their way or no way. I, too, am against dumps that are not properly regulated without strict enforcement and schools that are not centrally located but I understand that this is probably what the developers wanted all along and they are entitled to make a living in-accordance-with the law. Having covered stories such as these in the past I have found that there is almost always a strong but silent segment of the population that will not want to anger their neighbors by speaking up least they be trashed and that these individuals usually 'go with the flow' when it comes to most things. I believe that that is usually why there is little turnout for elections. My question is simple: who, if anyone, has polled the homeowners and residents that are effected. I know that communities usually have HOAs or Condo Associations that speak for them but, given the politics involved in all HOA or CA elections, I would be more interested in a poll that allowed them to speak for themselves on such important issues.

Jeff Andrade August 31, 2012 at 08:05 pm

Looks like Daniel joined on August 31, Patrick joined on August 28, and Nathan also joined on August 31. Welcome to the Patch. Where do you all live in the area?

Dave August 31, 2012 at 08:54 pm

Daniel, I agree that ultimately the question of development is a political question that must be before the voters, but the developers are proceeding in a fashion to avoid democracy at every turn.
First off, you claim that they have a right to develop their land. That's true - as long as it complies with the existing zoning codes. Right now, today, Two Rivers could be developed at the R-20 (1 home per 20 acres) density that it is zoned. What the Two Rivers developers have asked for is a special exception to build at least 2,000 home units on that land. They are not asking for the "right to development", they are asking to put a massive, dense development where the zoning law otherwise specifies a rural area. Now, we can debate that the zoning laws should be changed. But the developer don't want a debate. They got the assent of the unelected school board, and I guarantee they are going to tell the public that they are now carrying out the School Board's wishes. Anne Arundel County deserves much of the blame, because nearly all the development in the area, including Piney Orchard, has been developed by special exception. If everything is an exception, then there is no zoning law - only favors granted to landowners at the option of the permanent and unelected bureaucracy of AA County.

Dave August 31, 2012 at 10:14 pm

Patrick,
As for the facts, they require research. As a journalist, you sure understand the dangers of coming to conclusions on the basis of information provided by some guy with a blog comment. I would start with the AA county zoning code: http://www.aacounty.org/planzone/zoning/index.cfm Zoning map: http://gis-world2.aacounty.org/silverlightviewer/?Viewer=Zoning Phase III engineering report of the Tolson (Cunningham) landfill: http://www.croftonfirst.org/documents/PhaseIIIEngineeringReportText.pdf Unfortunately, most of the history of the dump is locked in the AA County archives at the Planning & Zoning department. An in-person visit will get you the right documents. I would be happy to meet with you and discuss living in the local area if you want.

Chris W September 1, 2012 at 12:54 am

Patrick, great points. I think most of us want the same thing, I don't think anyone wants a dump near their home. The trouble is some see any additional development as a bad thing. I would much rather have more housing developments and fewer landfills.

Chris W September 1, 2012 at 04:42 pm

Jeff, since you are the president of "the largest community association" that formally opposed this project, perhaps you can answer the questions posed by Patrick H.
Who if anyone has polled the homeowners and resident affected? And to expand on his question: How many people attended your meeting? How many we're opposed? How many we're for the proposal? How many we're uncommitted? I suspect you can't provide an actual number can you?

Dave September 1, 2012 at 10:05 pm

Chris,
Don't you suppose that the people of Piney Orchard elected a President and a Board to represent them so that they don't have to be aware of every possible issue that could affect them? What proof do you have that the direct democracy that you advocate for would end up with superior results, with respect to making wise decisions?

Patrick H. September 1, 2012 at 10:22 pm

I also want to welcome Daniel and Nathan. I was referred to the PATCH by friends who thought I could get a feel for the community. What attreacted you to this Social Media Site?
We are currently staying with friends until we decide where we want to either purchase or rent. Where do you live? My questions were general in nature and not meant to put any single person on the spot. I am sure that most of Chris's questions can be answered by reviewing the minutes of the meetings that took place but it would be nice to simply have the information reported here.

Patrick H. September 1, 2012 at 10:31 pm

Dave - I don't interpret Chris W.'s statements as being either for or against a direct democracy. You and I both know that not all Board's speak for all their constituents and that each Board Member probably has their own agenda (isn't that what appears to be going on with the School Board)? I am not trying to put POCA, whose Board Members are elected by their constituents, in the same category as a school board that is appointed by the Governor but there is the distinct possibility that any Board may actually only bring forward the views of 1 more than half their number. If that is the case I think it only fair that that be known. When it comes time to vote on the issue the Board only has the number of votes that are actually on the board. It remains to be seen whether the POCA Board is in unison on this or if this is a one person majority much like that of the school board.
Take care and have a wonderful weekend - we heard of this place called Kauffman's and are thinking about trying it for Sunday Jazz and Brunch (or maybe just grilling at home).

Patrick H. September 1, 2012 at 10:34 pm

Dave - I'd love to sit down with you over coffee and get your take on the area and the local communities. Give me a chance to re-read the policies for responding on the PATCH and see how I need to go about posting personal information. I am a firm believeing in privacy rights and would not want to violate them.

Dave September 1, 2012 at 10:46 pm

Patrick,
I don't want to put too fine a point on it, but I doubt that more than 10-15% of the people who live in Piney Orchard could definitively locate the proposed landfill, road, and school on the map. I know, because I canvassed the community in a letter-writing campaign against the Cunningham landfill. As you said before, most folks leave it to others to take the lead on these sorts of things and just do not get involved. I guess my point is that if most folks want to remain blissfully ignorant of these kinds of issues, then what do their opinions contribute to wise decision-making? I strongly suspect that a majority of people in Piney Orchard would be against a landfill adjacent to Piney Orchard and GORC park, and they would also be against increased traffic near their homes and on their streets. You have a good weekend as well. Kauffman's recently rennovated and changed their name, they are now "J.Kings": http://www.jkingsrestaurant.com/menus/main-menu I haven't been there in awhile, but I would also recommend Four Seasons as being a good place to eat. They are a bit expensive for dinner - I recommend their lunch menu.

Patrick H. September 1, 2012 at 11:06 pm

Dave - you're probably right on all of your points. I doubt if the 10-15% you quote is even close to the actual number (much less). I gues that if people keep doing (or not doing) what they do they shouldn't complain when they keep getting what they got (but I guarantee that they will complain and very angrily). I appreciate your canvassing the community and really am impressed with your advocacy. But there is always a but - I am still curious as to what the area constituents have to say. Minimizing their input would be like forgoing a jury trial and taking the Judges word for it. What does the jury have to say?
No wonder I had trouble finding Kauffman's. We will be sure to take a look at Four Seasons for lunch - thanks for the tip - we try to get out once a month for something different and special.

Chris W September 2, 2012 at 01:46 am

I'm not trying to be antagonistic. I just thought Patrick made a great point and wanted to follow up on it. Truthfully, in these modern times there is no reason that the home owners would not be able to vote electronically. It would empower people.
I disagree with Jeff and others that are opposed to this, but I give Jeff credit forthe time he invests in his work for POCA. His hearts in the right place. Patrick, Piney Orchard is a nice place to live if you are ok with the planned community/HOA concept. There are older neighborhoods in Odenton that are nice too and don't have the HOA. It all depends on what you are looking for. Christopher's on route 3 in crofton is a nice restaurant. Hunan Rose is the best local Chinese restaurant.

David Daughters October 1, 2012 at 01:19 am

Patrick H.:
To my knowledge, none of those arguing above live in Four Seasons, which is a separate community and where I have lived for 39 years, We do have occasional disagreements, but we handle them without the name-calling. We have community associations (there are actally three separate developments - Four Seasons, The Courts of Four Seasons and Four Seasons Estates) that work on issues in the best way possible, taking a rational approach. I personally oppose the proposed school location - miles from the proposed development, but I've already said my piece on that. Come give us a look, and if you want to see how the FSCA functions, we have a meeting on October 11th, and you're welcome to sit in as an observer.